تبادلۂ خیال:دھوبی سوڈا

• درج ذیل میں لفظ صواد کی اصل الکلمہ کے بارے میں وکشنری کے تبادلۂ خیال پر کی گئی ایک گفتگو کو موقع کی مناسبت سے درج کیا جارہا ہے۔ اس کا وکشنری ربط یہاں پر دیکھا جاسکتا ہے۔ --سمرقندی 02:30, 26 ستمبر 2009 (UTC)

tamafʕala (verb form - Arabic)

Hi, Stephen. The edit you reverted in Appendix:Arabic verb forms was mine. The verb form really exists, for example in the word tamadhhaba تمذهب. I think you felt fishy about the anonymous edit, but if there are other reasons for the revert, please let me know so we can discuss them. thanks. Hakeem.gadi 01:55, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

I know they exist, but there was no template yet for {{ar-verb-maf3ala}} or {{ar-verb-tamaf3ala}}. There is another word that is a problem, soda. The etymology is supposedly from Arabic suwwad (saltwort), and suwwad is said to be related to the word for black. So it seems like it should be سانچہ:Arab or سانچہ:Arab, but I cannot find any source for this. —Stephen 02:04, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

I've created the templates. About soda, I don't know if this is a correct etymology. But my grandmother, who didn't receive any form of education whatsoever, used to call Sodium carbonate soda soːda, which also means black سانچہ:F in Libya and most the Arab world. There is the possibility, however, of a borrowing form Italian (Libya was occupied by Italy in the first half of the 20th century). But, I also remeber her mentioning it when explaining the recipe for making traditional soap, an industry that predates the Italians by centuries I believe, and industries that had been in place before the Italians came didn't borrow words form Italian. This distinction is prominent in oilmills where the terminology faithfully tells the history of the mill in Libya with Arabic words for the parts that existed before the occupation and Italian words for the new parts and technologies the Italians brought with them. The Standard Arabic word for soda is صودا--Hakeem.gadi 08:42, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I suspect that سانچہ:Arab is a re-borrowing from Italian. The Italians borrowed it first, from something like سانچہ:Arab, and then Arabic borrowed it back again as سانچہ:Arab. I’m told that saltwort was processed into soda by extracting a black liquid, which explains the connection between soda and black. But I can’t find a record of the original Arabic (the only Arabic I can find for saltwort is سانچہ:Arab). Instead of سانچہ:Arab, I think it might be سانچہ:Arab. —Stephen 09:16, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

If so, the closest Standard Arabic word is سانچہ:Arab which simply means black (fem). I can imagine people first using مية سودا (mmayya sōda)(Libya), مية سودا (mmayya sōda) (Egypt), مي سودا (may sōdē)(Levant), موية سودا (mōya sōda) (North Arabia Bedouins), then shortening to sōda. It is pertinent to note, in this juncture, that in all Arabic dialects -at least the ones I know- the word for water is (fem) as opposed to the standard variant ماء which is masculine, a fact that fits neatly into what you mention about the black water. About the reborrowing of soda, I don't think it specifically comes from Italian, because Italian have only influenced Libyan Arabic, and Libyan Arabic didn't effect Modern Standard Arabic as Egyptian and Levantine did. I am more inclined to think that it comes from French. As these two dialects had been influenced by French before the reform of Arabic. Hakeem.gadi 09:53, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

French would be soude, which means soda as well as "Salsola kali" (saltwort). But soude should have re-entered Arabic as سانچہ:Arab, not سانچہ:Arab. I suppose سانچہ:Arab could have come from the English word soda. I’m afraid this is another case like droga where we can’t be certain of the real story. —Stephen 10:13, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

WWWWWWwwwwwait a second, about the grammatical gender of the word for water in dialects of Arabic, I've just rememebered that the rural version of it in Libyan Arabic is مي /me/ is masculine. I feel asshamed being Libyan ;-). I also believe that the Gulf variety ماي and the Moroccan variety ما are masc. I don't think this effects the above discussion, however.

Hakeem.gadi 01:36, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. Arabic gender has always been a bit of a problem because there are almost no resources for it. Unlike Spanish, French as German, Arabic dictionaries ignore it for the most part. Gender and plurals are two of my short-term goals for Arabic entries.